Can't wait for davai's ever positive attitude to pop up here.

MJR, you were too polite to mention what my NPR station told me. His son was circumcised on the anniversary of Rabin's assassination.

Those idiots -- and there seem to be plenty of them -- that support murder as political action, racism and prejudice as a foundation to political debate, undermine the countries they claim allegiance to.

Sadly, that would go for the US as much as Israel.

I don't see any of these reactionaries as any more a useful part of society than the skinheads in 70s UK.

Destructive, to say the least.

You struck me as a hopeless optimist in some of your earlier posts. But this one outlines many of the facts that led me to conclude that there is very little the US can do to promote an acceptable peace between the Israelis and Palestinians; it seems to me that internal Israeli politics have moved to the point where an acceptable agreement is no longer possible. I hope you are right and I am wrong. In any case, it is why I have argued that the US should simply disengage from the ME and let the natives sort out the mess themselves -- war, negotiations, ethnic cleansings, whatever, it is not our fight. The US has its own national interests that are not necessarily those of Israel and we should pursue our interests.

The US does have considerable leverage in Israel. Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. The US has given Israel nearly $100 billion in the last fifty years, $2.46 billion this year.

Israel imports nearly all its oil supplies, and they must come from afar because Israel doesn't have relations with the main ME suppliers. Guess what--there is a Mosul (Iraq)-Haifa(Israel) pipeline that was in use prior to 1948 There are plans to re-open it, as well as a Kirkuk-Haifa pipeline. Who would imagine that there was an oil benefit to Israel in the liberation of Iraq?

syanen, I don't wish to be there with you, and I hope it is a phase both nations will pass through, but it is the intransigence -- perhaps on both sides -- but the destructiveness that is not only apparent but palpable and measurable on the right, both in the US and Israel, that is so very corrosive to their societies.

Unfortunately, the left, not really being a "left" but, in fact, central to society, is not invigorated to the level to slap the right neo-facsists down.

But that is what they are. Dangerous and poisonous to democracy and an open society. Unsympathetic and antipathetic to cooperation, or inter-racial and international compromise.

When the vaste majority see themselves as part of a communal society it is hard for them to see the destructive forces concentrated from the flag-entwined right.

More particularly when, from the fringe, they are co-opted into that same negative body -- whether as a church/synagogue/mosque member or as peer group.

Amos, the "deeply devout" seem to never have had a problem with contradicting the edicts of their religion. Historically and from my own experience I would put "Christianity" at the very top of this abuse. However, there are powerful groups, too, among both Jews and Muslims (there are past Hindi, Buddhist and Shinto examples) that have the same negative and self-serving agendas.

Some god please help us all get through this present madness.

"Something terribly ugly is happening in AMERICA. It started during BILL CLINTON's term as PRESIDENT when right-wing extremists and religious fanatics joined in ................."

A sad state of affairs in both countries.

Right, the doctors induced the delivery (at Mrs. Assassin's request) so that the circumcision, which must take place 8 days later, would fall on the anniversary of Rabin's murder.

MJ,

I would say thats a case of malpractice by the doctors.

"Who would imagine that there was an oil benefit to Israel in the liberation of Iraq?"

Pointed snark from auded Cafe community member Don Bacon, juxtaposed with the moving words of my teacher MJ Rosenberg. Fortunately, for now, Don Bacon and his views are irrelevant, for the good and decent people of the United States are not likely to latch on to this ugly, heinous notion that their sons and daughters died in Iraq so that Israel could have easier access to oil. This ugly notion indeed, the one with historical ties to the ugliest indictments against the Jewish people for millenia. This is what my people hear.

Don Bacon, and the ease in which he points his finger at Israel as the cause of our dead brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters, our neighbors and friends, in the quagmire that is Iraq, has produced Exhibit A as to why the American Jewish community has trouble hearing what people who love peace, like MJ Rosenberg, and so many other genuine and good faith critics of the State of Israel have to say. This is what my people hear.

Scoff at me. Say I stifle. It matters not. Don Bacon and his ilk sound a recurring alarm with my people--once again we are being blamed for the death of children on the battlefield. This is what my people hear.

In Vichy France, too, the story was told that the stunning, lightning victory by the Germans was the fault of the centuries-old Jewish community of France.

Vonnegut wrote. . .and so it goes. This is what my people hear.

Bruce S. Levine
New York, New York

We already had an intelligent US president who understood the damage of the escalating stalemate in Israel/Palestine and put this tops on his agenda. The Israeli left led Israeli goverment. However, Palestinian side refused to accept the two state solution, they insisted on "the right of return". instead of negotiations, they started killing Israeli children, They called it Second Intifada.

with the moving words of my teacher MJ Rosenberg

Davai:

You are writing to someone who named his eleven-month old daughter Noa, in tribute to Prime Minister Rabin's granddaughter, whose moving words at his funeral are something both my wife and I (we didn't know each other at the time) will never, ever, ever forget. I feel nothing but contempt for those Israelis who stain his memory and laud his murderer.

I join MJ in pointing out and condemning these evil haters of Rabin in Israel davai, whatever the reverberations are at the Cafe, even reverberations in the form of good ole' fashion scapegoating, as so aptly exemplified by high fives Bacon.

Bruce

Although I understand your reaction, I think it's more accurate to say that the crazies such as Amir represent a particularly depraved subset of the "deeply devout." There are deeply religious people who would never think of twisting their religion's tenets in such a distorted manner. A selective reading of religious texts can produce a justification for just about anything. The problem isn't religion itself - this sort of person, lacking a purely religious justification would certainly find another, imho. But there are many deeply religious persons, I think, who would find Amir's actions reprehensible, as we do.

M.J. has reported elsewhere in this thread that 25% of Israelis favor releasing Amir, so in Isreal's case, the depraved subset appears to be frighteningly large. 

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

notthere,

Unfortunately, the left, not really being a "left" but, in fact, central to society, is not invigorated to the level to slap the right neo-facsists down.

I made this argument only yesterday, with a friend who considers himself a "centrist," and exploits the self-image to launch into rants against "all politicians."  I argued that "the center cannot hold," and that to be a genuine centrist today requires an advance of genuinely liberal principles.  It's good to know this is not a lonely argument.

Pointed snark from auded Cafe community member Don Bacon, juxtaposed with the moving words of my teacher MJ Rosenberg. Fortunately, for now, Don Bacon and his views are irrelevant, for the good and decent people of the United States are not likely to latch on to this ugly, heinous notion that their sons and daughters died in Iraq so that Israel could have easier access to oil.

While I can't speak for Don Bacon, to claim that he's saying that plans to resurrect the Haifa pipelines means that [U.S.] "sons and daughters died in Iraq so that Israel could have easier access to oil," is a quite leap.

This ugly notion indeed, the one with historical ties to the ugliest indictments against the Jewish people for millenia. This is what my people hear.

How do we discuss actual facts then? I have deep sympathy for the very real suffering that the Jewish people have undoubtedly undergone, but should that prevent us from discussing situations where it does appear that there is a benefit to Israel that has come about as a result of the war with Iraq? Would you have us believe that Haaretz is also antisemitic for publishing an article pointing these facts out?

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

Thanks to Bar Kochba for demonstrating, yet again, the horrors I describe here.

Funny you should mention this. You have no problem believing the conspiracy theories about JFK (I presume you support Oliver Stone's theories), i.e the CIA, the FBI, and the conservative "Establishment" did it. You also accuse the Israeli gov't doing all sorts of nasty, immoral things to the Arabs. Yet you, with childlike innocence believe the SHABAK regarding Yigal Amir and Rabin's murder, along with SHABAK agent provocateur Avishai Raviv, with child-like innocence.

Please give a rebuttal to the facts I pointed out, if you can.

Yes, we have two people MJ and Bar claiming that Israeli people are crazy. Both are claiming conspiracy in the murder of Rabin.
Usually, Bar is more credible.

Actually, it wasn't sex. It was a smuggled out vial (vile)of assassin semen.

The general view is that the SHABAK intended to stage a provocation-i.e. a fake attempted assassination in order to strike a political deathblow at the anti-Oslo right, which, in effect worked. That is, it was not their intention to kill Rabin. However, it gets very confusing after this, and I frankly don't really understand what happened, although there are those who have investigated.
You have to understand that Israel was founded by Eastern Europeans, not Americans, so their view of citizen's rights and the power of the government are very different than those of Americans or the British. In Israel, the Left has always been careful to place political loyalists in positions of authority of the most important arms of state coercion, i.e. the police, the State Prosecutor's office, the state-controlled electronic media, the army high command, the Supreme Court, and most importantly, the SHABAK. The SHABAK has a long history of carrying out illegal political espionage and provocations, so none of this is new. There is a lot more to be said about this, but I will leave it at this.

In my nearly two years of posting at TPM Cafe, this has to be the most amazing (and chilling...and telling) post I have ever seen. barK, who expects the U.S. should continue to provide military and other financial  and logistical support for Israel, is telling us that the Israeli intelligence forces (SHABAK, better known as Shin Bet) are responsible for the murder of an Israeli Prime Minister. If this is true, our aid to Israel should cease immediately, because it represents evidence of a failed democracy.

Tell me, barK, are you also saying that Amir should be freed because he was "just following orders"? 

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

Thank you for admitting that you can't rebut what I posted. Of course, you are masking it as a "matter of principle" but I think most people can see through it.

To tell the truth, I was concerned of a reaction like yours, but you can not blame the people of Israel for what its SHABAK may or may not have done. The facts I have stated are well known and in the public domain. Dalia Rabin-Pilosof's interview in "La-Isha" magazine has been translated into English and is available on the internet.
Every country has its dirty linen that needs to be washed out. The US sent soldiers to defend Saudi Arabia and it is a vile, corrupt dictatorship that still has slavery. I am glad people in Israel are learning the truth and I hope that someday real reforms can be carried out to prevent these type of abuses from occurring. Again, you can not blame the people of the country for the abuses of its leadership.

visited very effectively on virtually the entire population of Israel.

Not this time Wordie. I'm not with you my brother. We must agree to disagree.

But for the record, I do assume Wordie that the question you pose to me about Haaretz was rhetorical and that you know that I do not believe that the Haaretz article you cite is anti-semitic.

The other question you ask about HOW we can discuss these matters is a much different story. I would be very disappointed if the two of us ever stopped discussing stuff. But, really in this instance, and with total respect, it is material and correct that you do not speak for Don Bacon and in particular with respect to why he wrote what he wrote.

Bruce

frankly0 said:

One of the most disturbing things that I have observed as I've grown older is how things that were once inconceivable in society can gradually become quite widely accepted.....

The open use of torture would be a case in point for American society....
I think that what's going on in Israel is the same phenomenon writ large....

".....something is very, very wrong in the interaction of people who represent Israel, the United States, and those looking for peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians....." JohnW1141

If this is true, our aid to Israel should cease immediately, because it represents evidence of a failed democracy.

M.J. thinks you're a troll. I don't - I think you're the real deal. I also think you should be allowed to continue to post here, because in one post, you managed to present more compelling evidence of why the unquestioning U.S. support of Israel is so wrongheaded than I could have done with a thousand posts. Keep 'em coming, bar.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

Not much, The problem is not with Israeli people or the goverment they elect. Israeli people are not crazy and they are ready for peace. You probably have a different opinion because you pay too much attention to people like MJ.

Right. It was all Beitar.

Good morning Howard, It was kind of boring without your 0 rating.

Keep their sanity perhaps but not necessarily make the best choices. In the face of constant attacks people tend to bur their differences and unite against a common enemy. No one is making a Palestinian State less likely than Hamas and their apologists.

Daniel A. Greenbaum

One of my readers here e-mailed me to ask if I was "dismayed" that the only "support" Israel gets on this very important liberal website comes from rightwing trolls.
In fact, that isn't true. I'm an Israel supporter and so are many others who post here.
But, one thing is certain, the occupation and its defenders have made support for Israel a clear minority view among liberals.
Democratic candidates will mention Israel to Jewish crowds but know that support for Israel is no selling point among non-Jewish (and probably most Jewish) liberals.
Amazing how the situation has changed since Rabin was murdered. Just prior to his death, Rabin was ranked in poll after poll as the most respected foreign leader in the world. Not just here in the states but throughout Europe.
Israel was admired because it had made the decision to end the occupation.
Now, Israel is anything but popular.
The good news is this. The fact that Israel was so admired during Rabin's day demonstrates that it is not anti-semitism that fuels anti-Israel feeling but anti-occupationism.
After all, if young Europeans liked Israel when Rabin was PM, they obviously are not anti-Jewish or they would have disliked him as much as Begin, Bibi, and Sharon.
The bottom line is that the damage the right has done to Israel can be undone when the occupation ends, the settlers move back where they came from, and a Palestinian state is established.
Until then, Israel will remain a pariah, which is terribly sad for someone like me.

However, are you also joining MJ in painting Israeli people as crazy who need urgent help from MJ to save them from themselves?

Distorting or misrepresenting somebody's statements may seem like fun, but it doesn't do much to advance a discussion.

Aaaron,
Tell me from whom he wants to save Israel?

the settlers move back where they came from, and a Palestinian state is established.

Until then, Israel will remain a pariah, which is terribly sad for someone like me.

have disliked him as much as Begin

I'm an Israel supporter

Most settlers could be bought off financially
leaving on the minority of ideological settlers. I don't think the IDF would have much trouble removing them.
After all, once the army leaves, the settlers have to leave too. What can they do? Stay behind in the Palestinian state?
A few might. The rest will go back to Israel, Russia or the States.

I agree with you that devotion isn't the issue. But I think it is probably more accurate to say that there is a subset of humanity, secular and devout, which can be inspired to join in some particularly depraved philosophies and actions. In some contexts, religion is an inspiration, in others it's a tool cynically used for recruitment or control, and in other's it's irrelevant. The greatest danger is that this type of radicalism can be taught, and can become normalized within a subset of a society or even a society as a whole.

In terms of the Amir statistic, JTA reported the survey results as follows:

A recent poll in the daily Ma’ariv found that more than a quarter of the Israeli public believes Amir will be released from prison after serving 20 years of his sentence - that’s just eight years away. The survey found that 26 percent of the public at large and 42 percent of Israelis who define themselves as religious support freeing Amir at that time.

The easiest example to find on the web, due to the notoriety of the case, is probably that of Samuel Sheinbein, who at the age of 17 committed an exceptionally brutal murder in Maryland (where he would likely have been executed, or at best sentenced to life without parole), but is instead serving a 24-year sentence in Israel where (ten years into his sentence) he has already enjoyed hufshas, and who will be eligible for parole in six years. In some senses, as opposed to Amir, Sheinbein is be the person more comparable to the Samir Kuntar mentioned above - although both were 17 at the time of their crimes, the circumstances are so appalling that my (American) instincts are that I would be reluctant to let either walk free.

Within that an Israeli cultural context, though, I can see how somebody could find it defensible to parole Amir after twenty years - Sheinbein will probably be paroled by the time he has served 20 years, and cannot be held for more than 20 years. I can see the reaction as being one of fairness - this is what is done with murderers, so why should Amir be singled out due to his politics (when he may be less dangerous after release than somebody like Sheinbein)? Due process and equal rights before the law, but in a context somewhat alien to American sensitivities. Religious motivation does not automatically translate into sympathy for the crime - I can also see how religious philosophies of mercy, forgiveness and compassion could come into play.

That is not to deny the reality of Amir's supporters - but their numbers should not be overstated. Last year, the Dahaf institute performed a survey for Yedioth Ahronoth which indicated that 5% of Israelis supported an immediate pardon for Amir, and 25% supported a pardon after another twenty-five years. That five percent figure probably better reflects the population with direct sympathy for Amir's actions, while the larger number seems more likely to be premised upon other values, both religious and secular.

As I read him, he sees that Israeli people harm Israel.

Thanks for a thoughtful reply, aaron1. I agree with your comments about religion.

But while it may be true that there is a general sentiment in Israel that criminals, even murderers who have committed heinous crimes, should ultimately be forgiven and allowed to go free, it would seem to me that a murder of a Prime Minister ought reasonably fall into a special category. While generally a tradition of forgiveness is laudable, it's important to remember that Amir has never expressed remorse for the murder - to this day he actually remains proud of his act. I'm sure the Israeli public must be aware of this, so yes, to a person with American sensibilites, this is highly confusing.

The potential for future harm to the state is yet another reason that any of the polling numbers showing support for the release of Amir seem quite troubling. If an unrepentant Amir was released today, wouldn't he be likely to go after Olmert?

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

But for the record, I do assume Wordie that the question you pose to me about Haaretz was rhetorical and that you know that I do not believe that the Haaretz article you cite is anti-semitic.

I think you miss the point here, bslev. While you may not believe the Haaretz article to be antisemitic, you did imply that Don Bacon's comments were by saying:

Don Bacon and his views are irrelevant, for the good and decent people of the United States are not likely to latch on to this ugly, heinous notion that their sons and daughters died in Iraq so that Israel could have easier access to oil. This ugly notion indeed, the one with historical ties to the ugliest indictments against the Jewish people for millenia. This is what my people hear. [emphasis mine]

But now you say this:

But, really in this instance, and with total respect, it is material and correct that you do not speak for Don Bacon and in particular with respect to why he wrote what he wrote.

While I said I didn't presume to speak for Don Bacon, you yourself clearly presumed to do exactly that when you applied your own interpretation of what he said, and then attempted to shoot that down. And while I really don't know Don Bacon well enough myself to even begin to judge his intent, I also think, based solely on what he wrote here, that you inaccurately conflated his statement with antisemitic memes. 

It pains me that communication between us is so difficult, bslev.

“The healthy man does not torture others — generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers.” ~~ C. G. Jung

This is what MJ seems to claim.
To exact, he thinks that crazy Russian Jews and crazy Religious Jews took over Israel and are destroying Israel and only he can save Israel but AIPAC prevents him from saving Israel.