I have called both of my Senators, and my Congresswoman, and told them I will actively support their opponents in future elections if they vote in favor of this bill, or fail to act decisively to stop its passage.

We only need to delay it until the weekend, for crying out loud.

I've been writing shorter versions of your post in comments elsewhere for awhile now; this episode has been a shameful illustration of moral and political stupidity and cowardice. My one hope is the Dems' sudden realization, thanks to Bill Clinton, of the power of righteous anger, and the serendipitous illustration of the fact that two can play Rove's "go at their strength" game. Maybe, just maybe, those lessons can be transferred back to the Senate in time to stop McCave and company's vile "compromise" before the session ends. If we push.

When you reorganize jerks from two parties to many parties, the improvements do not have to be marked. Although the results are more amusing, as party solidarity does not cover an entire ruling coalition, so the guys in power trade insults on each other, Which could be helpful in the situation we are now.

Having the jerks spread out among many parties is probably a better way to go. The parliamentary system and proportional representation makes for much more interesting sessions. Having more interesting legislative sessions may be intriguing enough for people to watch CSPAN. Plus proportional representation gives some voice to minority parties, like the Greens.

While the bicameral legislative branch of government was probably a mistake, there's nothing we can do about it now. The left is stuck with the DNC and the right with the RNC.

It seems so obvious to me that if the Dems could align against the torture bill, they'd take at least some of the wind out of McCain's sails. His cover is key for the administration and any who vote for the bill. If Dems forcefully united in opposition, it would be harder for McCain to look like a moral reformer on this issue. If even a small portion of dems vote for, they're strengthening McCain's '08 cadidacy.

I live in Illinois and have contacted my senators repeatedly. Durbin spoke out, but Obama . . .

John McCain sold what was left of his soul long ago. I'm just surprised that it wasn't apparent to everyone after he chose to stay silent when Bush attached one of his "never mind" signing statements to his vaunted torture amendment last year. The only reason people still think he's a noble independent is that, as he himself has said, his biggest constituency is the media. Give'em access and the appearance of spontenaeity and they'll eat out of your hand. He wants to be president, and he'll do whatever he thinks he needs to to get there, damn the principle.

My favorite talk-radio guy has taken to calling him John McCave; pretty accurate, and pretty catchy.

The two twins from Maine will cave--I am willing to bet on it. They always do.

I will call, nevertheless, but am not holding my breath. They have both survived by sitting on the fence and joining in after the fact is secure.

McCain, or McCave (I like that) has been a Senator for too long. I believe it addles the brain; ditto for Lieberman. You have to make so many compromises, you have to appease so many diverse contributors, that after a while you gravitate to the easy course of hoping you don't offend anyone by not really taking a position on anything. Oh, you may appear to do so; but not really. So let's get rid of them now. So go out and vote for a Democrat, no matter how weak, get your friends to vote Democratically, and act to help others do the same. The long term Democratic Senators will have addled brains before long, but at least for the short term they will represent something newer and cleaner in Washington.

Is there any evidence that the Republicans assault on the Consitution has broad and deep support among the public?

Ron Byers

Seriously,

I don't talk to many people willing to surrender the constitution to the terrorists. Of course, I don't talk to many New Yorkers or beltway professionals. Those of us in "fly over country" remember Oklahoma City, a case of terrorism where we didn't surrender our rights.

Seriously, are all the professional Democrats just assuming the smart play is to surrender our rights? Has Rove snookered all the bubble people in to being "afraid, very afraid" of defending the constitution?

And if it is the case that the Democrats are, like the Republicans, unwilling to defend the constitution,why should any of us vote for any of them. I ask this question because I want to know what has happened to the famous American love of freedom.

Ron Byers

I think the most telling thing Napoleon ever said was, "Où est mon armée ?"

~OGD~

I have very few expectations from the Democrats, and I do believe that the Republicans are worse.

But this bill is *so* bad that the Democrats' refusal to even criticise it, much less mount a filibuster, is just too much for me. If they're willing to sign off on getting rid of habeus corpus review for US citizens detained by the DoD on Rumsfeld's say so alone, then, really, how much better *are* they?

I basically second your point below, in response to ron byers; and your mention of Morris Dees gets you a 4.

Oh boy, Reed, you sure called it. It's been a roll-over-sit-up-and-beg session today:

34 House Democrats voted FOR torture and AGAINST habeas corpus by helping pass HR 6166, a bill so bad that even 7 Republicans voted against it.

On the Senate side, S 3930, the AP reports: "senators of the two parties agreed to limit debate on their own nearly identical measure, all but ensuring its passage on Thursday."

Didn't there use to be an opposition party in Congress?

 
-- Raven.               Say NO to Torture!         Prosecute War Crimes!

So, here it is 9/28, 12:34 AM Eastern.

Why is it the roll call for the vote on this abomination of a bill is still nowhere to be found on the net???

Kevin Russell Cook

Re: Comments by BornAgainDarwinian
Wake up!

The opposition to the Fascist-Republicans that we'd like to have involves The Heroes on White Horses Party. The two party system we actually have is: the Fascist-Republicans vs. the Virtually Everything Else Party.

Some Democratic counterpart to Newt Gingrich should make the Dem reps in the House form military style ranks for a proper advance. Not gonna happen.

It always amuses me when Republicans assume some sort of groupthink to exist within Democratic ranks. The Republicans do their business that way! That’s why the current Congress has done such dreadful job of presidential oversight. Give George what he wants, no matter how bad his judgment has shown itself to be!

Republicans seldom question a Bush presidential proposition, unless it is, as we have recently seen, simply to raise a little indignation before caving in to bad White House policy. Then they proudly announce the cave-in as a compromise. (Sen. McCain?)

This country can gain a great deal by having effective Congressional watchdog committees shining some light on this President’s very questionable and often shadowy policy choices.

As for Republican fears of Reid or Pelosi running a tight opposition, that’s unlikely, even in the event D's find themselves in-charge. Lest we forget, there were Democrats among Ronald Regan’s “working majority” in Congress. As this election draws near you will hear a variety of positions from Democratic candidates on almost all important issues. This is how Democrats have been since before the Civil War.

This rankles sometimes, it sure does me! All of us would feel a lot better if all of them thought exactly as we do. Right? But, with the Democrats in charge of Congress there is one valuable thing we can count on.

Bush would not get an automatic and unexamined pass on every policy idea that Dick Cheney whispers in his ear. With things as they are now, and regardless of other considerations, this is the one powerful reason to vote Democrats into Congress this November.

They are actually doing more than you think. Levin has a habeas corpus amendment which the Democrats are united behind and have at least three Republicans as well, Spector, Leahy, and Smith. Word is that we will get Chaffey as well and with pressure the Maine Senators. It is sowing decension among Republicans and could slow passage until the next session when the Democrats will be stronger and possibly a majority. Don't buy into the weak Democrats talk. They are much better than you think. They need support from us, and sometimes pressure, but Harry Reid, though softspoken, is a courageous man. We need to do some work if we want things to change. Here's some info if you want to help.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/9/27/22449/0130

I used to think America was special. Our founders had made wise decision after wise decision. They had created a nation of laws. They had created a nation of checks and balances. Yes there had been a civil war, but after that war the tension between the branchs of government kept the rule of law alive, that and the deep belief that Americans have tried to do something special.

All during my youth I encountered people who thought the same way. The politicians thought that way too. Senators viewed themselves as American Senators. Representaives viewed themselves as representing Americans.

That vision really came to the front in times of crisis. The Congress was there to guard us from the natural impulse to excess inherent in any Executive. Watergate was not an aberation. It was simply Congress doing its duty.

Now the Constitution is again under threat. Our freedoms are being assaulted, and the members of Congress have forgotten they are Americans. They have forgotten they are the guardians of freedom. That is a central reason they were elected. Instead they think of themselves as Democratic senators and Republican congressmen and women. Party loyalty trumps loyalty to the people. Keeping the job is more important than anything. For Republicans holding your nose and doing what the President tells you is central. For Democrats avoiding the wrath of Karl Rove is central. Maybe Karl won't remember to replace me if I am good. Courage is for losers.

Maybe the new Democratic senators and representatives will bring new spine to Washington. Probably not.

Under our system all power is derived from the people. The President and all the rest are merely our servants. They can all be fired. And this year they all (or nearly all) deserve to be.

If your Senator or Congressman isn't willing to fight for the Constitution then he or she deserves to go.

Ron Byers

PghMike,

Exactly - some things are just so awful that they have to be opposed no matter what the political consequences are. In fact, I suspect that a campaign along the lines of "If you approve torture, Vote Republican" would attract a lot of voters to the Democrats. Clinton had the tone right in his interview.

If this bill passes then any alien in the US - including legal aliens with green cards - can be detained permanently, without charge, at the President's whim. Given the background checks that one undergoes to get citizenship how many legal aliens will feel comfortable applying? Legal aliens will become subject to exactly the same problems as face illegal aliens now.

Although I dislike references to Nazi Germany, what's happening here isn't that disimilar from the early stages. The worrying thing is what will come next, especially if the US attacks Iran. President for life Bush with unlimited powers? Why not?

Yeah, I'm working for Rove. Got my paycheque right here (grabs crotch).

Newsflash. The Bill is not vile. The Bill is a violent act of sodomy upon America. Termination of Habeas corpus, giving the President the power to pick up and detain anyone, inside or outside the United States, citizen or not, for any reason, for any length of time, just by calling them an Enemy combatant, and then legalizing torture?

You cannot have a piece of legislation like that, and call yourself a free people. The minute that gets passed, every single civil right you cling to becomes a joke. It becomes a privilege that the President can dispense with at will.

When this bill passes, America is over. Do you undestand that. Over. Done. Finito. Kaput.

Yeah, the land will still be there, and the buildings and the people. Like a Constitutional Neutron Bomb, this law will eliminate freedom and democracy as anything but window dressing, and leave everything else standing.

If the Democrats don't fight this tooth and nail to the last man, then they might as well give up and go home.

Frankly, your advice is simply to surrender and try to enjoy the rape. Bad idea. On your knees is no place to live.

Sorry we have to disagree, but you are just plain wrong in this. And you are disguising your lack of merit with horse puckey.